I got a computer with Office 2007 installed. How do I make Word and Excel,
and the rest of them, look like a normal application, with like... menu bars
and stuff... ? I can't find the option (actually it took me a while to find
*any* options at all, but I haven't found one for this yet).

Thanks,
Jason

"Jason Cipriani" <JasonCipriani> wrote in message
news:ff73
>I got a computer with Office 2007 installed. How do I make Word and Excel,
> and the rest of them, look like a normal application, with like... menu
> bars
> and stuff... ? I can't find the option (actually it took me a while to
> find
> *any* options at all, but I haven't found one for this yet).
>
> Thanks,
> Jason


There isn't any option (at least not natively) - you will need a third-party
utility to do it. And if you take the (short) time to investigate and learn,
you will soon find that you won't need to go back to the "menu" bars. Don't
forget, you can put all your frequently used commands onto the QAT (Quick
Access Toolbar).

Thank you for your quick reply.

"Gordon" wrote:
> There isn't any option (at least not natively) - you will need a third-party
> utility to do it.

Do you know what the name of this utility is, or where I can find it?

> And if you take the (short) time to investigate and learn,
> you will soon find that you won't need to go back to the "menu" bars.

I'm not interested in learning about one application that is different from
every other application on my system... I'd rather just have consistency. The
"File" menu may be ugly but at least I can rest assured that I can always
find it in the same place with no struggle. Anyways it looks like it was
written in Flash or something.

Thanks,
Jason

"Jason Cipriani" <JasonCipriani> wrote in message
news:836b
> Thank you for your quick reply.
>
> "Gordon" wrote:
>> There isn't any option (at least not natively) - you will need a
>> third-party
>> utility to do it.
>
> Do you know what the name of this utility is, or where I can find it?

Fair few here:
http://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en...Searc h&meta=


>
>> And if you take the (short) time to investigate and learn,
>> you will soon find that you won't need to go back to the "menu" bars.
>
> I'm not interested in learning about one application that is different
> from
> every other application on my system...

Hmmm - so when you get a NEW application, you don't bother to learn about it
because it's different from the others you have? Sorry, I don't buy that one
at all.

On Mon, 9 Jun 2008 23:13:00 -0700, Jason Cipriani wrote:

> I got a computer with Office 2007 installed. How do I make Word
> and Excel, and the rest of them, look like a normal application,
> with like... menu bars and stuff... ? I can't find the option
> (actually it took me a while to find *any* options at all, but I
> haven't found one for this yet).

The modern trend, supported by usability studies, is to use toolbar
icons not menus. If you stop trying to work O2007 as if it were O97,
you soon get the hang of the new 'ribbon' interface, it's very
intuitive.

"Gordon" wrote:
> Hmmm - so when you get a NEW application, you don't bother to learn about it
> because it's different from the others you have? Sorry, I don't buy that one
> at all.

I don't buy that at all either. That was an astounding leap of logic you
made from not wanting to use an MS Office interface that treats me like a 5
year old to not wanting to use an "application that's different". That's
probably why you don't buy it either -- because it doesn't make any sense.

When IE7 came out, it rearranged the layout from the standard interface.
Nothing was gained but using it was inconvenient. I don't see ribbons in IE7.
Office 2007 uses this *other* ugly new interface. Now that's fine if MS is
going to change all their software to use some new thing but if they're going
to come up with something completely new for every new application then, no
thanks.

I was a loyal Microsoft user for years, and IE7 prompted my switch to
Firefox. I have been a loyal Office user for years as well but I've found a
better utility to convert to class menus here: http://www.openoffice.org/

So to correct what you said, when a new application comes out with a crappy
interface that fixes something I never had a problem with, and there are
alternatives, then no I would not bother learning them. Why should I bother
learning Office 2007 when a good alternative exists? I no longer wish to use
MS Office so I could care less what direction they take the interface in.

Thanks anyways,
Jason

"Jason Cipriani" wrote:
> So to correct what you said, when a new application comes out with a crappy
> interface that fixes something I never had a problem with, and there are
> alternatives, then no I would not bother learning them. Why should I bother
> learning Office 2007 when a good alternative exists? I no longer wish to use
> MS Office so I could care less what direction they take the interface in.

And by the way, Gordon, it's stressful enough trying to learn a new UI, when
somebody comes here and asks for help about it, the last thing they want to
deal with is some weaselly guy getting over-defensive about the UI in his
favorite office suite...

Hi Jason

I understand your frustration as there is a sharp learning curve, but I
found it worthwhile in the end (I work with both 2003 and 2007 and now get
annoyed that 2003 can't do some of the good stuff like live preview....). I
just wanted to make sure you knew about the MS provided resources such as an
interactive
online guide where you click on how you would do something in 2003 and it
shows you where that is in 2007 and downloadable spreadsheets that you can
search for 'lost' commands:
http://office.microsoft.com/en-au/tr...295841033.aspx

There are also training modules just for 2007:
http://office.microsoft.com/en-au/tr...255331033.aspx


Lucy

"it's very intuitive."

I respectfully disagree. I used the trial version (primarily Excel) for
almost two months. I happen to use Excel heavily. Besides the fact that Excel
crashed randomly, the Ribbon interface was illogical, confusing and
counterproductive. There are plenty of user, esp. long time ones like myself,
who have found the Ribbon to be a productivity killer.

I and several others have asked Jensen Harris (he led the team that designed
the Ribbon) about the way the user data was collected AND the way the
"acceptance" number (85%) was calculated. No answer from Jensen Harris! That
in itself speaks volumes.

I strongly suspect that had MS provided a choice for users (the classic UI),
the acceptance number would have been far lower. Subtract the "captive" users
(the poor souls who HAVE to use that Ribbon), and the number would be lower
still.

Oh well! I got rid of Office 2007 and went back to Office 2003. Excel no
longer crashes. Since it looks like MS has no interest in providing a classic
menu, despite requests from thousands of users, it also caused me to look
into OpenOffice and Zoho.

Now MS has the Search Commands thing available from Office Labs. As a poster
commented, it would be better to provide a classic menu option than the
Search Command kludge. I totally agree.

Oh yes, since Office 2007 provides no value add for me, there's absolutely
no reason for me (and others like me) to invest time & energy learning the
Ribbon thing.

-- gemini.

"Chris Game" wrote:
[..]

"Gordon" <gbpli...@gmail.com.invalid> wrote...
....
>Hmmm - so when you get a NEW application, you don't bother to learn about it
>because it's different from the others you have? Sorry, I don't buy that one
>at all.

Depends on what one means by 'new'. There's a big difference between
same application but newer version (in which case radical change
unwelcome is a rational response) and an application one has never
used before.

Gemini <Gem> wrote...
>"it's very intuitive."
>
>I respectfully disagree. I used the trial version (primarily Excel) for
....

This is the BIG problem with Office. Most Office users use Word, so
whatever may be perceived as good for Word and Word users gets force-
fed to users of other Office applications. Probably not a problem for
PowerPoint or Outlook.

However, what's good for Word isn't necessarily good for Excel, and
the ribbon is positively bad for Excel. Ain't all that good for Access
either.

On Wed, 11 Jun 2008 23:26:44 -0700 (PDT), Harlan Grove wrote:

> However, what's good for Word isn't necessarily good for Excel,
> and the ribbon is positively bad for Excel.

I don't see how basic questions of complexity and usability
resulting in improved presentation of user options wouldn't apply to
Excel just as much as to Word. If there are bugs in the
implementation that is a different issue.

There's no doubt that individual users tend to repeat the same tasks
so each user has their own set of commands and options they tend to
use over and over, they are effectively trained to use the apps in
their own individual way. Changing this is hard, you have to forget
the old ways and learn the new. Does it pay off in the end? Studies
show it does (ok MSFT did the studies but they have an interest in
reducing user confusion and errors don't they?)

Chris Game <chrisg> wrote...
>On Wed, 11 Jun 2008 23:26:44 -0700 (PDT), Harlan Grove wrote:
>>However, what's good for Word isn't necessarily good for Excel,
>>and the ribbon is positively bad for Excel.
>
>I don't see how basic questions of complexity and usability
>resulting in improved presentation of user options wouldn't apply to
>Excel just as much as to Word. If there are bugs in the
>implementation that is a different issue.
....

You aren't really an Excel user, are you?

> . . . you have to forget the old ways and learn the new.

Or choose not to upgrade, or use non-Microsoft software, or use Office
on a Mac. To repeat a point I made in a different thread, Office 2008
for Macs seems to provide all the nifty new features without the @#$
%&*! ribbon interface, so the ribbon isn't NECESSARY for providing the
new features.

>Does it pay off in the end? Studies show it does . . .

Really? Where's the data?

> . . . (ok MSFT did the studies . . .

and won't make the data public

> . . . but they have an interest in reducing user confusion and errors don't they?)

No. They have an interest in selling their own software and making it
more difficult for users to use non-Microsoft software. The ribbon
hasn't reduced user confusion or errors.

Chris, I (amongst many other users), don't see the need for the Ribbon at
all. The menus were just fine.

IMO, MS has tried to shove the new UI down users' throats. Had they provided
a choice, I'm willing to bet that the Ribbon would have fallen flat on it's
face. Based on Jensen Harris' description of how the usability data was
collected (see his blog), I believe there were significant gaps in that data.
In particular, I don't believe experienced users were well represented at all.

As for changes paying off in the long run, that's true only if the new UI
makes the user more productive. Jensen himself listed several points on which
they based the design, before Office 2007 was released. From my perspective
(and I am hardly alone in that), none of those points were satisfied by the
new UI. So, you have many experienced users who don't see any merits in
learning the new UI. What MS did get is long time users going back to Office
2003 and/or looking for other alternatives. As and when time permits, I am
looking into transitioning to OpenOffice and/or Zoho for future needs, rather
than shell out the $$$s for something I don't need/want in the first place,
merely because someone at MS thinks it's better for me. BTW, I've been using
Office apps for longer than I care to remember.

-- Gemini

"Chris Game" wrote:
[..]

On Thu, 12 Jun 2008 11:19:15 -0700 (PDT), Harlan Grove wrote:

> No. They have an interest in selling their own software and making
> it more difficult for users to use non-Microsoft software. The
> ribbon hasn't reduced user confusion or errors.

No. No supplier tries to alienate their customers. I think you'll
find that customers loose their way in the long menus rather more
than in the ribbon.