> You haven't seen posts from the majority of longterm users. You've seen
> a few hundred posts at most, I'm betting, and from that extrapolating
> what you think hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of users are
> feeling.
I've seen quite a few posts from longterm users and a vast majority of them
are negative about the Ribbon. I'm willing to bet that you (or anyone else
from MS), is > You haven't seen posts from the majority of longterm users.
You've seen
> a few hundred posts at most, I'm betting, and from that extrapolating
> what you think hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of users are
> feeling.
unable to provide solid data to the contrary. In that context, the Ribbon's
not a success.

> Well, no, not really. But whatever. :)
In other words, you have no hard data to back up the claim of "few hundreds
in millions".

> Of course.
So what other options are viable here? Pray tell.

> And from the perspective of many other Excel users the Ribbon is fine.
Really? How many? What %age of longterm/power users? Ben, you're making
claims here without any data to back those up. Did you read those criteria JH
himself listed?

> Plenty, thanks.
Glad to hear it.

> I'm saying they had other priorities. A small outfit with no other
> goals but to produce an add-in can do it. A product team with a long
> list of other features that are more important to them doesn't have
> time.
To me, that's an excuse. But whatever! :-)

> I didn't doubt it; I simply have no knowledge of it nor any interest in
> defending it. I don't know where he got the 85% number from or what the
> definition of "acceptance" of a UI is. And I don't really care that
> much. It's important to you, not to me.
Well, now you have the actual source where JH made that claim. Whatever he
means by "acceptance", he's attempting to claim that the Ribbon is
successful. I'm not surprised you don't consider JH's "acceptance" claim of
any significance. The fact remains he made the claim and despite several
requests from posters, wasn't able to cite any solid data to back it up.
That's the definition of an unfounded claim.

> When it comes to our respective opinions of his abilities I think I'll
> go with the guy who has actually spent time with him. :-)
Sure, go ahead. Perhaps you think spending time with JH is a big deal. I
certainly don't!
I realize it is your interests to be in MS' good books. However, given the
fact that JH did not respond to queries about how the initial usability data
was collected (including the composition of the user group considered) nor to
his claims about the Ribbon's success, I'm certainly not disposed to put much
stock in his claims.

> Well, I think that's the conclusion that you're hoping for, yes. I
> disagree. :-)
Point out any other LOGICAL conclusion! He had the opportunity to explain
AND put both himself and MS in a much better light. He didn't! That silence
spoke volumes.

> And so can a lot of other Office 2007 users.
And a great many users are using Office 2007 because they're "captive" (i.e.
required to use it at work, since someone in the ivory towers decided
"upgrading" to Office 2007 was a good idea). I know quite a few of them
personally.

Cheers!

-- Gemini

"Gemini" <Gemini> wrote in message
news:AB6CDA54-978D-49BB-A7D6-7F64611F3C90:

> > You haven't seen posts from the majority of longterm users. You've seen
> > a few hundred posts at most, I'm betting, and from that extrapolating
> > what you think hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of users are
> > feeling.
> I've seen quite a few posts from longterm users and a vast majority of them
> are negative about the Ribbon. I'm willing to bet that you (or anyone else
> from MS), is > You haven't seen posts from the majority of longterm users.

<shrug> I'm not the one claiming that "most" users don't like the
Ribbon.

> > a few hundred posts at most, I'm betting, and from that extrapolating
> > what you think hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of users are
> > feeling.
> unable to provide solid data to the contrary. In that context, the Ribbon's
> not a success.

You're unable to provide solid contrary to the affirmative. In that
context, the Ribbon's not a failure. :) Cool how that knife cuts both
ways, isn't it?

> > Well, no, not really. But whatever. :)
> In other words, you have no hard data to back up the claim of "few hundreds
> in millions".

No, in other words I think you're misunderstanding the statistical
principles involved but I don't see anything to gain by taking the time
to try and explain it so I'll just leave it alone.

> > Of course.
> So what other options are viable here? Pray tell.

It was a measured decision made with the knowledge that some people
wouldn't like it but that on balance across the whole of the Office
userbase it would be a positive.

> > And from the perspective of many other Excel users the Ribbon is fine.
> Really? How many? What %age of longterm/power users?

Many.

> Ben, you're making claims here without any data to back those up.

I'm using the same data you have - anecdotal reports from a small sample
of users. In my case a few thousand of them.

> Did you read those criteria JH himself listed?

Nope. Like I said, that's important to you - not me.

> > I'm saying they had other priorities. A small outfit with no other
> > goals but to produce an add-in can do it. A product team with a long
> > list of other features that are more important to them doesn't have
> > time.
> To me, that's an excuse. But whatever! :-)

I thought you said you'd done development? :)

> > I didn't doubt it; I simply have no knowledge of it nor any interest in
> > defending it. I don't know where he got the 85% number from or what the
> > definition of "acceptance" of a UI is. And I don't really care that
> > much. It's important to you, not to me.
> Well, now you have the actual source where JH made that claim. Whatever he
> means by "acceptance", he's attempting to claim that the Ribbon is
> successful. I'm not surprised you don't consider JH's "acceptance" claim of
> any significance. The fact remains he made the claim and despite several
> requests from posters, wasn't able to cite any solid data to back it up.

You'll have to take that up with him.

> That's the definition of an unfounded claim.

And "the most users don't like the Ribbon" is a fine example of an
unfounded claim.

> > When it comes to our respective opinions of his abilities I think I'll
> > go with the guy who has actually spent time with him. :-)
> Sure, go ahead. Perhaps you think spending time with JH is a big deal. I
> certainly don't!

I think it gives me more insight into what he is and isn't capable of
than you. That's all.

> However, given the
> fact that JH did not respond to queries about how the initial usability data
> was collected (including the composition of the user group considered) nor to
> his claims about the Ribbon's success, I'm certainly not disposed to put much
> stock in his claims.

Well, as long as he's claiming favorable things about the Ribbon, that
much is certain. :-)

> > And so can a lot of other Office 2007 users.
> And a great many users are using Office 2007 because they're "captive" (i.e.
> required to use it at work, since someone in the ivory towers decided
> "upgrading" to Office 2007 was a good idea). I know quite a few of them
> personally.

Me too. And I know many users who chose to use Office 2007.


-Ben-
Ben M. Schorr, MVP
Roland Schorr & Tower
http://www.rolandschorr.com
http://www.officeforlawyers.com

"Chris Game" wrote:
> ...Most people know they have spent far too long
> scanning menus to find something that might relate to what they want
> to do (usually calling up the help assistant to identify they names
> of the function items that MSFT use!)

Yeah, I know this thread is long dead, but...

I can much more easily figure out what function I need from a name than I
can from an icon.

As for finding what I want--as you and others have pointed out, different
users have different functions they commonly use. I seldom use tables, for
others tables might be crucial. I never use the Equation Editor, but a
mathematician's mileage might vary.

The old interface allowed you to modify your menus so you could put the
things you wanted where you wanted them. The new interface hides things
regardless of what your personal preferences are, and the only fix is to put
an icon into the "Quick" menu area. I can't remember what an icon means, so
unless I constantly use it, I have to mouse-over them all until I find the
one I want.

And don't get me going on the color scheme, which makes it (a) hard to tell
whether a window is focused, (b) makes it hard to see the elevator bar, and
(c) disrespects my wishes as expressed in my setting in the Control Panel.

Mike Maxwell
CASL/ U MD

> I can much more easily figure out what function I need from a name than I
> can from an icon.
Good point! I wonder how that works with all those "usability" studies that
have been cited to support the Ribbon's existence. Most of us use a written
language, rather than hieroglyphics, in our every day communications.

Every time I read similar posts, it indicates that the so-called "research"
Jensen Harris claims to have done while designing the UI, was badly flawed.

Perhaps you might want to let MS & JH know how you feel about the
"brilliant" Ribbon.

Here's a link to the former.
http://office.microsoft.com/en-us/products/default.aspx
Look for the "Send Us Your Comments" link in the lower left corner.

Here's a link to Jensen Harris' blog. You'll find a link to send him an
email on the menu bar.
http://blogs.msdn.com/jensenh/

hth!

-- Gemini

"McSwell" wrote:
[..]

"Chris Game" wrote:

> The modern trend, supported by usability studies, is to use toolbar
> icons not menus. If you stop trying to work O2007 as if it were O97,
> you soon get the hang of the new 'ribbon' interface, it's very
> intuitive.

Quite frankly, the vast majority of users doesn't care about trends, but
about applications that make them productive. I suffered under the ribbon now
for two days and had enough of it. Even after running through the free online
training I still have to constantly search for commands and once I found the
one I need a minute later it is gone or somewhere else.
Menus are predictable and the commands are always in the same place. I don't
get this predictably from a trendy UI that looks like a FisherPrice toy.
Microsoft should have given the paying customers the option to ribbon or to
menu. I think it is a better customer-focus to let the customer decide and
not some UI design group in Redmond or Bangalore. After all, MSO2k7 isn't
what I consider moderately priced for a commodity application, so customers
need to have a say in what is in there and how it works, at least have some
more options.
I keep digging for solutions on making Office 2007 usable. Until then I use
OpenOffice.org. It isn't a good replacement for some cases, but I find it
easier to work around those cases than to get constantly annoyed by the
ill-designed ribbon.

"Dave" <Dave> wrote in message
news:8b26
> "Chris Game" wrote:
>
>> The modern trend, supported by usability studies, is to use toolbar
>> icons not menus. If you stop trying to work O2007 as if it were O97,
>> you soon get the hang of the new 'ribbon' interface, it's very
>> intuitive.
>
> Quite frankly, the vast majority of users doesn't care about trends, but
> about applications that make them productive.

as a recently retired Systems Accountant I can tell you that the VAST
majority of Office users only deal regularly with a narrow range of
documents for which they only use a small number of regular functions.

> I suffered under the ribbon now
> for two days and had enough of it.

Wow! A whole TWO days?

> Even after running through the free online
> training I still have to constantly search for commands and once I found
> the
> one I need a minute later it is gone or somewhere else.

Then right-click on it and add it to the QAT. Or didn't you find the QAT?

> Menus are predictable and the commands are always in the same place. I
> don't
> get this predictably from a trendy UI that looks like a FisherPrice toy.

Well on MY Office 2007 the commands ARE always in the same place.....

> Microsoft should have given the paying customers the option to ribbon or
> to
> menu. I think it is a better customer-focus to let the customer decide and
> not some UI design group in Redmond or Bangalore.

You did try the trial version first?

"Chris Game" wrote:

> On Fri, 13 Jun 2008 08:26:51 -0700 (PDT), Harlan Grove wrote:
>
> > Let's consider the number of nested menus.
>
> Word in Office 2003: 250 menu items, 31 toolbars, 19 task panes
> (PC-Pro article). It had out grown the menu system, something more
> usable was necessary.

Maybe that should have been the queue to cut all the bloat and useless
features from Office. But no, Microsoft just crams more stuff in it and on
top of it makes it harder to use.

"Ben M. Schorr - MVP (OneNote)" wrote:

> You don't like the Ribbon, we get it. Thanks.

Let's hope Microsoft gets it and adds the menus back in as an option.
Besides that, I now appreciate the rather bland UI of the previous office
versions. The overall look is fancy and pretty and such, but also way more
distracting. Where is the Office Classic theme? After all, they even have the
Windows Classic theme in Vista (which makes it barely usable...different
issue).

"Gordon" wrote:

> "Dave" <Dave> wrote in message
> news:8b26
>
> as a recently retired Systems Accountant I can tell you that the VAST
> majority of Office users only deal regularly with a narrow range of
> documents for which they only use a small number of regular functions.

So wouldn't it then have made more sense to make a "light" option of the
menu structure that reduces the bloat that way?


> > I suffered under the ribbon now
> > for two days and had enough of it.
>
> Wow! A whole TWO days?

I don't think that two months would have made a difference. It just doesn't
work for me and that seems to be not an uncommon complaint. I know that some
people like the ribbon, so have them use the ribbon. But at the same time
many users favour the menu structure. I really can't believe that any study
showed that taking the well-established menued approach away made sense.
Empirical data from various sources suggests otherwise.

> > Even after running through the free online
> > training I still have to constantly search for commands and once I found
> > the
> > one I need a minute later it is gone or somewhere else.
>
> Then right-click on it and add it to the QAT. Or didn't you find the QAT?

Yes, I did, which is somewhat of a help, but not really. I want menus, not a
stockpile of icons.


> > Menus are predictable and the commands are always in the same place. I
> > don't
> > get this predictably from a trendy UI that looks like a FisherPrice toy.
>
> Well on MY Office 2007 the commands ARE always in the same place.....

Maybe the configuration is different? Besides that, the approach to ditch
text and replace it with icons requires a lot of imagination from the user. I
get the impression that the i18n expenses for Office were too high for the
penny pinchers. Ditching the text based menus and replacing it with purdy
pictures is way cheaper.

> > Microsoft should have given the paying customers the option to ribbon or
> > to
> > menu. I think it is a better customer-focus to let the customer decide and
> > not some UI design group in Redmond or Bangalore.
>
> You did try the trial version first?

No, since O2k7 came with the new Dell I have here at work. There wasn't a
chance to trial anything.
I did find add-ins that implant the old style menus into the ribbon. That
seems to work out OK although I yet have to find out how to make the Add-in
tab stick and not get replaced with the other ribbon rubbish.
But O2k7 remains a lost cause for me. I switch to OOo for the common tasks.
Sure, some things are different there as well, but it is by far not that
disturbing as the ribbon.
Microsoft should put out an add-in / theme for O2k7 that styles it the way
O2k3 was and replaces the ribbon with menus. Then it is up to the customers
to decide what they want. I am sure corporations will also love it as they
save quite a bit on retraining their entire staff. It isn't as if one can go
to Microsoft and buy O2k3 instead.

Dave, you might want to send an email to MS from the Office section of the
website, stating your opinion.

Also, you can send Jensen Harris an email from his blog site.

Interestingly, since posters started asking probing questions about how the
initial data was collected, what kind of users it represented, etc. and about
hard data to back up the claims of the Ribbon's "success", JH has disappeared
from his blog.

I don't see a shred of evidence to indicate that MS (or anyone else) has any
verifiable data to back up the Ribbon's "success". All claims to that effect
are utter BS.

-- Gemini


"Dave" wrote:
[..]

Gemini <Gem> wrote...
....
>Interestingly, since posters started asking probing questions about how the
>initial data was collected, what kind of users it represented, etc. and about
>hard data to back up the claims of the Ribbon's "success", JH has disappeared
>from his blog.
....

To be fair, either Jensen Harris really believed he was doing all of
Office userdom a favor with the new UI and is very shocked that many
don't appreciate his efforts, or he's a prima donna and will have
nothing to do with anyone questioning his masterpiece.

"Harlan Grove" <hrlngrv> wrote in message
news:62ea43ce-2592-47bf-b4a6-818247a2ff28:

> Gemini <Gem> wrote...
> ...
>
> >Interestingly, since posters started asking probing questions about how the
> >initial data was collected, what kind of users it represented, etc. and about
> >hard data to back up the claims of the Ribbon's "success", JH has disappeared
> >from his blog.
> ...
>
> To be fair, either Jensen Harris really believed he was doing all of
> Office userdom a favor with the new UI and is very shocked that many
> don't appreciate his efforts, or he's a prima donna and will have
> nothing to do with anyone questioning his masterpiece.

Actually I don't think it's either one of those things and I've spent
some time with Jensen personally. I think he really believes that he
and his team improved Office with the new UI and he's not at all
surprised that some users don't like it.

Anybody who has any design experience at all (and Jensen has plenty)
knows perfectly well that you can't make everybody happy.

A lot of people DO like the new UI.


-Ben-
Ben M. Schorr, MVP
Roland Schorr & Tower
http://www.rolandschorr.com
http://www.officeforlawyers.com
Author - The Lawyer's Guide to Microsoft Outlook 2007:
http://tinyurl.com/5m3f5q

Spending time 'training' for something that I've been doing for 13 years is
very counterproductive and an unacceptable answer to the original poster's
question.

"Lucy Thomson" wrote:
[..]

"Jason Leigh" <Jason Leigh> wrote in message
news:00cf
> Spending time 'training' for something that I've been doing for 13 years
> is
> very counterproductive and an unacceptable answer to the original poster's
> question.
>

So when you buy a new car you make sure that ALL the switches and buttons
are in EXACTLY the same place as your old one?

"Gordon" <gordonbpar...@yahoo.com.invalid> wrote...
>"Jason Leigh" <JasonLe> wrote...
>>Spending time 'training' for something that I've been doing for 13 years
>>is very counterproductive and an unacceptable answer to the original
>>poster's question.
>
>So when you buy a new car you make sure that ALL the switches and buttons
>are in EXACTLY the same place as your old one?

And the prize for most inept analogy goes to . . .

If only the commands in the ribbon were the equivalent of the dome
light or the radio volume!

The ribbon is more like making the pedals control steering and
replacing the steering wheel with a lever for accelerating and
breaking. Who'd buy such a car?