jim wrote:
> "dennis@home" <dennis> wrote in message
>> That is the wrong attitude!
>
> Wrong attitude?!
>
> Dude, I have simply been looking for answers. And, I have been accused of
> being a troll, mocked, lied to and generally told to piss off by people that
> either (a) don't have a clue as to what the answers may actually be or (b)
> are simply Linux Zealots who are too busy hating to offer a hand to someone
> trying to make the switch to Linux.
>
> There is definitely a wrong attitude in these Linux NGs....but it didn't
> arrive with me.
>
It sure didn't, but your posts so far have done nothing but perpetuate
it. Every post you make just turns people off even more. Trust me when I
say that's not the way to inspire someone to help - here or anywhere else.

I have been self-employed for 46 years in a small business, one that
grew from a childhood enterprise. I don't have a clue when it comes to
coding, or for solving your problem in the way you want it solved. But I
can tell you this much: if this is the way you approach all those who
supply your inputs, your business is doomed. If you want someone who is
providing something to you for free (or even those who do it for pay) to
go the extra mile for you, you have to cooperate, not confront. From the
sound of it, you need them more than they need you. You would do well to
remember that.

TJ

jim wrote:

Folks, what most of you ignored is this is "his experience." Secondly, only
a moron would claim Linux is a finished work. It is not. That is not a
slam, merely the truth. But then no piece of software is truly a "finished
work."

The "faithful" will label folks like Jim as "trolls." In so doing they are
merely proving just how immature many in the Linux community are.

To Jim, it isn't a finished work, just notice how many apps do not have that
magical digit to the left of the decimal point. FOSS may well mature to
the point where stuff works on all platforms. That day is not today, but
it may well be in the not too distant future.

Deb

"TJ" <TJ> wrote in message
news:99b1
> jim wrote:
> It sure didn't, but your posts so far have done nothing but perpetuate it.
> Every post you make just turns people off even more. Trust me when I say
> that's not the way to inspire someone to help - here or anywhere else.
>
> I have been self-employed for 46 years in a small business, one that grew
> from a childhood enterprise. I don't have a clue when it comes to coding,
> or for solving your problem in the way you want it solved. But I can tell
> you this much: if this is the way you approach all those who supply your
> inputs, your business is doomed. If you want someone who is providing
> something to you for free (or even those who do it for pay) to go the
> extra mile for you, you have to cooperate, not confront. From the sound of
> it, you need them more than they need you. You would do well to remember
> that.

I'll be honest with you TJ, I don't expect an honest answer in these groups.
I am posting here more out of sheer desperation than in any hopes of
actually getting an answer.

I've been in enough Linux groups to know that the best things they are for
is accusing those trying to adopt Linux more of being trolls, bashing
Microsoft and praising Linux - while offering damned little in the way of
actual help to anyone that asks.

Do I want help? Damned right.

Will I get it here? I don't think it exists.

jim

"ray" <ray> wrote in message
news:0gu1
> On Wed, 11 Jun 2008 20:34:23 -0400, jim wrote:
>> 1) don't tell me MS is perfect.

I didn't. I won't.

> 2) MS would have already solved the problem - right?

It's not their problem. They aren't the ones playing catch-up.

When you control the monopoly, helping another system come in would only
weaken your grip. No self-respecting monopoly is going to do that.

jim

"Lim-Dul" <lim_dul_> wrote in message
news:f905
> Jesus Christ, people. Why are you even arguing with this guy? He shows the
> very definition of trolling - storming into a newsgroup dedicated to
> something and bashing it without listening to counter-arguments etc.
>
> Just plonk him already and stop bumping this sad little topic. Although
> Although I'm (partially) a Linux user myself I do think that he may have
> raised some valid points (if we were to generalize some specific issues he
> mentioned) BUT he did it in the very worst manner and probably in the
> wrong place. That's why he deserves no further attention...

I came here after going to the wrong place - the linux advocates group.
They sent me here.

Could I have phrased my questions or responses better? Sure. But, its hard
to smile while you're getting beat up.

jim

"Dr. Deb" <dgfreeman> wrote in message
news:nz2d
> jim wrote:
>
> Folks, what most of you ignored is this is "his experience." Secondly,
> only
> a moron would claim Linux is a finished work. It is not. That is not a
> slam, merely the truth. But then no piece of software is truly a
> "finished
> work."

Even Ballmer said (about 5 weeks ago) that Vista was "a work in progress".
Personally, I think he gives it too much credit - but at least he publicly
recognized that it is not a polished OS.

> The "faithful" will label folks like Jim as "trolls." In so doing they
> are
> merely proving just how immature many in the Linux community are.

In my defense, I honestly started out here being nice and polite. After
getting attacked so often, you adapt to the environement in which you find
yourself.

> To Jim, it isn't a finished work, just notice how many apps do not have
> that
> magical digit to the left of the decimal point. FOSS may well mature to
> the point where stuff works on all platforms. That day is not today, but
> it may well be in the not too distant future.

I wish it were a finished system (or that Apple was more open). The one
thing that would make Windows better the fastest would be good, stiff
competition.

jim

On 2008-06-12 14:50, Dr. Deb wrote:
> Folks, what most of you ignored is this is "his experience." Secondly, only
> a moron would claim Linux is a finished work. It is not. That is not a
> slam, merely the truth. But then no piece of software is truly a "finished
> work."
>
> The "faithful" will label folks like Jim as "trolls." In so doing they are
> merely proving just how immature many in the Linux community are.
>
> To Jim, it isn't a finished work, just notice how many apps do not have that
> magical digit to the left of the decimal point. FOSS may well mature to
> the point where stuff works on all platforms. That day is not today, but
> it may well be in the not too distant future.
>
> Deb

I concur, read e.g. my comments on Linux Mint, Linux in general, the
Linux community and the state of the desktop OS-es nowadays. I admitted
myself that Jim may have raised some valid points.

http://gayhacker.wordpress.com/2008/...mint-5-review/

Some days ago it took me several hours to automount a Samba share
provided by another Linux computer not because of my lack of knowledge
(I configured more Samba networks on non-GUI distros and non-desktop
devices than I could care) but because Samba seemed to be buggy in this
particular case and ONLY work with the nounix mount parameter even
though setting "unix extensions = no" globally (on the server - tried it
on the client machine as well) in smb.conf should have achieved the same
thing. Not to mention that you sometimes have to provide a relative path
to your credentials file and sometimes the full one and so on and so forth.

Then there are TONS of bugs in X.org, just to provide another example,
that make it behave differently on almost identical computers (I gave
some tips to another user recently and all the solutions that worked in
my case didn't work in his - figure this one out) etc. I have virtually
not seen a single advanced Linux app that doesn't have some bugs that
strike you even at the first launch - sometimes they're just minor or
aesthetic (I'm speaking of terminal applications as well) and sometimes
they are no less than disastrous - even in the so-called stable releases.

How about Ubuntu, the most popular and widely praised distro in the
world, terminating the network before unmounting network shares on
shutdown which requires you to reconfigure the shutdown and restart
procedures unless you want to wait through a 30 second network timeout
each time you do one of the above. The same is true about shutting down
the sound system before playing the shutdown sound in X.org...

All these things, although seemingly simple and surely trivial for any
seasoned Linux veteran - so much so that they may hardly qualify as bugs
- can't be solved through any GUI applet or in any intuitive way for the
Linux newbie lacking deeper knowledge that SHOULDN'T be required in such
cases.

Which still doesn't make me appreciate Linux any less. I'm just saying
that it's an OS for tinkerers and advanced users, not the holy grail of
computer OS design some fanboys and anti-corporate zealots claim it to
be. The only thing that is working as advertised is usually the kernel -
and only in the stable version, probably not even the latest stable one.
Everything you install on top of that will cause and IS causing
problems, maybe more than Windows during routine desktop usage, and I
don't judge a system by its kernel alone - the WinNT kernels based on ye
olde VMS are good as well after all, it's the crap that has been shoved
on top of them that makes them worse and that's a sin Linux is no less
guilty of unless you're using a minimal installation configured only to
do a certain task, e.g. act as a router - that's at what Linux does
indeed excel. The kernel might not be crashing and you might not be
getting BSoD-s (or kernel panic as you call it in Unix-like OS-es) but
so what? This might be crucial for servers running 24/7 but not
necessarily desktop computers which simply need to work when they work
and be user-friendly.

However, I still think that Jim broke pretty much every unwritten Usenet
rule there is and used his experience to bash an OS in its own
discussion group instead of posting his rants in some less specialized
place and stepping down on the tone a bit. Sometimes (if not MOST times)
THE WAY you do something is just as important as the thing you're doing.

Best regards,

Lim-Dul

On Thu, 12 Jun 2008 11:04:02 -0400, jim wrote:

> "ray" <ray> wrote in message
> news:0gu1
>
> I didn't. I won't.
>> It's not their problem. They aren't the ones playing catch-up.
>
> When you control the monopoly, helping another system come in would only
> weaken your grip. No self-respecting monopoly is going to do that.
>
> jim

What are you talking about? My point is - what response do you think you
would have gotten from MS if you had reported a similar problem to them? I
suspect they would have been even less sympathetic. I've never known them
to fix ANY problem in less than six months - and then only if it is a
major security issue.

On Thu, 12 Jun 2008 17:23:42 +0200, Lim-Dul wrote:

[..]
>
> However, I still think that Jim broke pretty much every unwritten Usenet
> rule there is and used his experience to bash an OS in its own
> discussion group instead of posting his rants in some less specialized
> place and stepping down on the tone a bit. Sometimes (if not MOST times)
> THE WAY you do something is just as important as the thing you're doing.
>
> Best regards,
>
> Lim-Dul

I agree. I'm a noobie to LINUX (the last command line stuff I did was in
DOS 4.0) so I use GUI whenever possible. To bash something because you
don't understand it is not in the best interest of the OS or in
requesting help. I'm not a Windows or LINUX guru by any standard and both
IMHO leave a lot to be desired. Both are getting bloated with unnecessary
code and built in programs that most of us won't ever use. I still manage
to blow both Windows and LINUX to hell when playing with things I don't
understand. But that's the idea behind my original interest in computers.

I have enough rescue, repair disks and CD/DVD's to fill a drawer and more
coasters that I can count. Not a complaint, just the price one pays when
you tinker.

I still think LINUX is more secure than Windows and that by and large is
mostly because Windows is the big boy and everyone takes shots at the big
boy whether verbally or generating virilli.

My network is Windows and I still play most of my intense games in
Windows because that's the way most games are ported. LINUX is still
short on many drivers but then again every time Bill pops out a new
Windows version the problem is there as well.

I'm using Ubuntu Hardy Heron (8.04) and several of the programs I used
with wine in Ubuntu (Guttsy Gibbon 7.10) won't work with 8.04. Is it the
OS or a wine problem. I don't know, but I will eventually figure it out
by experimenting with wine and reading newsgroups and forums.


Chris

On 06/12/2008 06:25 PM, Christopher Mills Wolfe wrote:
> I'm using Ubuntu Hardy Heron (8.04)

Welcome to the club. :-D
Linux Mint is based on Ubuntu after all and Elyssa (Linux Mint 5) is
based on Hardy Heron. ^^
I've been using SLAX for many years but that's only a Live distro I
carry around on a USB stick. I used to dual-boot Ubuntu but I got mad at
it when a distro upgrade from Edgy Eft screwed my system beyond repair
(that is: it'd have been faster to make a fresh install than to fix
ecerything).

I'm not so much a GUI person even though I'm a seasoned Windows user.
Even there I use Command Prompt or even PowerShell all the time and I
have been known for writing complicated batch files. ^^

As for Linux it's like I've written before - I'm used to the command
line interface because I had to configure all my network devices through
it - in fact I'm more clueless about how to do set up things graphically
or concerning graphical functionality than about some advanced
configuration settings. ;-)

Anyway - I'm forced to use Windows since I'm a video game journalist and
translator and the two major tools most translators are using, SDL
Trados and STAR Transit, are working only on Windows. OSS tools like
OmegaT(+) or Open Language Tools simply can't live up to these
standards. Not to mention that I find Microsoft Office to be the best
and feature-richest office suite even if it's expensive and hence can be
replaced by e.g. OpenOffice.org (which I've been using for around a
year) for the less advanced user.

I boot to Linux for internet browsing and even media watching because
NVIDIA screwed up the latest drivers so that they crash under Vista when
playing certain video formats - not Microsoft's fault though still a
large corporation is to blame. ;-)
I also find Linux Mint faster and more visually appealing (with Compiz
Fusion) than even Vista even though I had to install some Microsoft
fonts like Segoe UI I pulled from my Vista installation. ^^

Best regards,

Lim-Dul

On Wed, 11 Jun 2008 20:59:41 -0500, Dan C wrote:

> On Wed, 11 Jun 2008 20:34:23 -0400, jim wrote:
>
>> I have been chatting with people about my frustration with getting
>> simple stuff to work "out-of-the-box" with Linux.


___________________
/| /| | |
||__|| | Please do |
/ O O\__ NOT |
/ \ feed me |
/ \ \ Dan C |
/ _ \ \ ______________|
/ |\____\ \ ||
/ | | | |\____/ ||
/ \|_|_|/ \ __||
/ / \ |____| ||
/ | | /| | --|
| | |// |____ --|
* _ | |_|_|_| | \-/
*-- _--\ _ \ // |
/ _ \\ _ // | /
* / \_ /- | - | |
* ___ c_c_c_C/ \C_c_c_c____________

jim wrote:
> "Lim-Dul" <lim_dul_> wrote in message
> news:f905
>
> I came here after going to the wrong place - the linux advocates group.
> They sent me here.
>
> Could I have phrased my questions or responses better? Sure. But, its hard
> to smile while you're getting beat up.
>
> jim
>

COLA is probably the worst place to go. There are some here that are bad
but when you come in with an attitude that's all you'll get back. When
the attitude leaves you'll get more help. You can also try
Ubuntuforums.org. I find more answers there than here.
caver1

On Thu, 12 Jun 2008 11:05:37 -0400, jim wrote:


> "Lim-Dul" <lim_dul_> wrote in message
> news:f905
>
> I came here after going to the wrong place - the linux advocates group.
> They sent me here.
>
> Could I have phrased my questions or responses better? Sure. But, its
> hard to smile while you're getting beat up.

It helps if you don't invite people to beat you up.

On 2008-06-12 19:33, caver1 wrote:
> COLA is probably the worst place to go. There are some here that are bad
> but when you come in with an attitude that's all you'll get back. When
> the attitude leaves you'll get more help. You can also try
> Ubuntuforums.org. I find more answers there than here.
> caver1

I'm pretty sure that he wouldn't have gotten more help on the
Ubuntuforums if the first couple of posts looked like the posts on this
newsgroup. ;-)

Besides - Jim DID get some advice, I'd say more than he deserved with
this attitude, even though his "help requests" looked more like showing
his discontent with Linux in general instead and I almost expected him
to simply leave this OS be if he hates it so much...

Best regards,

Lim-Dul

On Thu, 12 Jun 2008 11:02:17 -0400, jim wrote:

> I've been in enough Linux groups to know that the best things they are for
> is accusing those trying to adopt Linux more of being trolls, bashing
> Microsoft and praising Linux - while offering damned little in the way of
> actual help to anyone that asks.
>
> Do I want help? Damned right.
>
> Will I get it here? I don't think it exists.

OK then, you may as well be leaving now (for good).

Buh-bye.