There was a posting I read in this newsgroup about a week back, where
some guy made a comment about he was surprised the Delphi community
still existed and had not passed away a long time ago. That comment
bothered me, because like most Delphi programmers I have a past history
of coding in C++ and I *know* how weak the C++ community really is. The
C++ community has a few strengths but in almost every area that really
matters to most people, the Delphi community is many times stronger.

The reason the Delphi community is so strong is because just about every
Delphi programmer is "on the same page", meaning they use the same GUI
framework to write Win32 executables, so they can share both graphical
components and non-graphical components easily and readily.

For exactly the opposite reason the C++ community is weakened
considerably by the fact that so many of them are using different visual
component frameworks. One guy will use MFC (yuck), another wxWidgets,
another Qt, and others will choose one of the hundred or so frameworks
lying in the C++ dying-and-almost-forgotten heap. They are not all "on-
the-same-page". They cannot share their graphical components.
Sometimes they can't even share non-graphical code due to library or
compiler conflicts. Oh yes, they have all the diversity out there, but
it comes with a price.

Here is an example: For years I have been checking out wxWidgets and
contemplating moving my projects over to c++/wxWidgets. It takes me
this long to keep looking because I just can't believe how awful the
situation is for c++ programmers. There are components available to
Delphi programmers that I take for granted and just cannot believe their
is no C++ equivelant. My disbelief causes me to look again and again,
each time to be shocked anew. I see nothing like the EasyTable database
engine that I use; go and find me one complete with C++ source, that
allows many tables within a single file, and can match its extensive
feature set. I just don't see it. Everything available for C++
programmers looks crummy by comparison. There are **SO MANY** great
embedded database engines available to Delphi programmers. Find me a
good toolbar component that can match Toolbar2000+TBX. Nothing! A
really great treeview component. Nothing. The simple components I take
for granted every day have so much more richness than anything that Qt
or MFC or wxWidgets has. And don't go recommending some ActiveX stuff
-- I want something written using the framework I use.

Try to find some high-quality native MFC components out there. After
All, MFC is suppose to be the biggest of the Win32 Graphical frameworks.
Well I tried, many times, and whatever is written purely for MFC is
pretty stinky compared to what Delphi users get. MS's MFC holy grail
was to talk their MFCers into making everything a separate little
ActiveX file. wxWidgets components? There is so little out there for
wxWidets that it is ridiculous! Qt components? Same scene, unless you
program for the Linux KDE desktop.

I read there are over 1.5 million C++ programmers in the world. How
many Delphi programmers are there? 400,000 or so!!! There are *NOT*
400k C++ programmers "on the same page". I wish I had figures for the
number of MFC, Qt & wxWidgets programmers that are out there, because I
think if we had some really good figure here folks, we would be either
laughing at them or crying for them. I think we would be shocked to
realize that many of those 1.5 million C++ programmers are just
interested in embedding their code in some appliance ROMS. Appliance
ROMs are not written in Delphi, they are written in C/C++, and appliance
ROM coders could add up to several hundred thousand coders easily?

<groans>

No wonder the C++ community is so weak-looking.

The more I look, the less strength I see among the C++ community. They
did pretty good to release the BOOST libraries, and they are very usable
because they are non-graphical, but when it comes to the most necessary
of things such as, full-featured graphical components, the C++ community
shows its true weakness.

I pity them.

Now go prove it to yourself by reading the MFC forums. Weak! Wimpy!
So few topics compared to the Delphi forums. Now go read the Qt forums.
Tiny! The wxWidgets forums. Less traffic than just Delphi.non-
technical alone! But whatever you do, do not look at the c++ public
usenet forums because it will just bring a tear to your eye, because its
just full of people asking why they get such-and-such indecipherable
error, or why a certain library refuses to compile.

Delphi is way ahead.

I just had to post that, because I have been wanting to that off my
chest for a long time. It just comes natural for a programmer to keep
looking for the "next big thing" to code in, but that thing just doesn't
exist, not if you're into producing Win32 executables. Delphi 2005 is
it. C++ has pretty much stalled, and for all the publicity C++ gets you
still have to wake up to the fact that its third-party component
availablilty for graphical components is very pathetic in contrast to
Delphi. And I hate to say it: it will stay that way.

I am not a language bigot. I root for C++ all the time; but man, they
have fallen behind. I want them to whomp all over Delphi to give it
some competition, but I just do not see it happening.

Mike Vance <nospam> wrote in message
<MPG.1d290b7e85ff0d64989687>
> I am not a language bigot. I root for C++ all the time; but man, they
> have fallen behind. I want them to whomp all over Delphi to give it
> some competition, but I just do not see it happening.

For Win32, I totally agree with your assessment that D2005 is it. There
really is nothing comparable in the one type of development that is still the
most popular, and probably will be for some time.

As for .NET, well, I suppose some people are finding it useful, or novel, but
I have yet to see an application that would be better if written as a .NET
application, and I have yet to see a compelling reason to use it for anything
I am developing. That doesn't mean I expect to never find it useful, don't
get me wrong, it is just that at this time, it doesn't seem to really have
enough value added for it to be worth the bother.

"Mike Vance" <nospam> wrote in message
news:9686
<snip>
> I read there are over 1.5 million C++ programmers in the world. How
> many Delphi programmers are there? 400,000 or so!!! There are *NOT*
> 400k C++ programmers "on the same page". I wish I had figures for the
> number of MFC, Qt & wxWidgets programmers that are out there, because I
> think if we had some really good figure here folks, we would be either
> laughing at them or crying for them. I think we would be shocked to
> realize that many of those 1.5 million C++ programmers are just
> interested in embedding their code in some appliance ROMS. Appliance
> ROMs are not written in Delphi, they are written in C/C++, and appliance
> ROM coders could add up to several hundred thousand coders easily?
</snip>

I estimate that on a typical Win32 GUI app, one Delphi programmer is as
productive as 3 C++ programmers. That boosts the 400K Delphi programmers to
near total output of the C++ programmers! That can't be right - something
wrong with those numbers somewhere ??

As well as the shared IDE, there is also the shared initiation into the
Delphi "secret weapon"; that tool which performs magic. Plus the shared
shame of not using a "real programmer's language" like C++ !

When I look at the C++ widgets libraries, it brings back memories of
programming for Win GUI with a C++ compiler and a resource editor. Took
days to get simple interfaces going. That was 12 years ago, and people are
still doing the same sort of thing.


Roger Lascelles

I have done programming with delphi & Borland C Builder.
Though i am a Delphi only programmer, I feel with Dexter(latest version of
Borland C ++ Builder) coming this year you can have best of both worlds(ie
VCL components & C++).
Though i could not confirm it I was told by a source that it is getting
released in Oct 2005
Venkatesh
"Roger Lascelles" <rogerlasAToptusnet.com.au> wrote in message
news:9006
[..]

Roger Lascelles wrote:

> I estimate that on a typical Win32 GUI app, one Delphi programmer is as
> productive as 3 C++ programmers. That boosts the 400K Delphi programmers to
> near total output of the C++ programmers! That can't be right - something
> wrong with those numbers somewhere ??

Why should the numbers be wrong? There are also some other factors to
take into account also. Delphi is more efficient than C++ as a language.
C++ has so many language features that only a few experts can use it
fully. This means that the average C++ programmer should use a simpler
language. Java, C# and Delphi are roughly on the same level there.

It would be interesting to analyze the questions on Experts-Exchange.
Delphi is on the Top Ten list of activity there. I am sure that the C++
questions are much more focused on language problems instead of
programming problems.

> Though i am a Delphi only programmer, I feel with Dexter(latest version of
> Borland C ++ Builder) coming this year you can have best of both worlds(ie
> VCL components & C++).
> Though i could not confirm it I was told by a source that it is getting
> released in Oct 2005

Awesome! I am so glad the CBuilder tradition continues. The CBuilder
users add strength to the VCL community and provide more cash flow to
the third-party VCL component vendors so that we all have niftier
components; which is why I love CBuilder so much, even though I do not
use it presently.

The biggest issue I found using Delphi was other people's perceptions of
it. Nobody wants to touch it, as it's not C++ and they have to learn a
new language. Or, "it's Pascal, I did that at University", then you see
their eyes glaze over.

Where I sit today, GUI components are not the issue, cross-platform is.
That makes it C++.

Pete

"Roger Lascelles" <rogerlasAToptusnet.com.au> wrote in
news:42bf9006:
> When I look at the C++ widgets libraries, it brings back memories of
> programming for Win GUI with a C++ compiler and a resource editor.
> Took days to get simple interfaces going. That was 12 years ago, and
> people are still doing the same sort of thing.

Thats what I think when I look at ASP.NET, PHP and other common web development tools. :)

"Pete Goodwin" <pgoodwin.nospam> wrote in
message news:b038
> The biggest issue I found using Delphi was other people's perceptions of
> it. Nobody wants to touch it, as it's not C++ and they have to learn a
> new language. Or, "it's Pascal, I did that at University", then you see
> their eyes glaze over.
>
> Where I sit today, GUI components are not the issue, cross-platform is.
> That makes it C++.

I loved learning Pascal at college. The syntax diagrams made it easier.

Kirk Halgren

"OLE's demands on system resources are so high that it is tempting to think
that it will never prove useful to a large number of users. However, the
same thing was said about GUIs, and now we are all using them-and they are
actually quite snappy if you have a fast 486 or Pentium."
-- Charlie Calvert, Delphi Unleashed © 1995, p797

Chad Z. Hower aka Kudzu wrote:

> Thats what I think when I look at ASP.NET, PHP and other common web
> development tools. :)

If only there were some tool to ease web development for Win32
applications... :)

"Chad Z. Hower aka Kudzu" <cpub> wrote in message
news:rorg
> "Roger Lascelles" <rogerlasAToptusnet.com.au> wrote in
> news:42bf9006:
> > When I look at the C++ widgets libraries, it brings back memories of
> > programming for Win GUI with a C++ compiler and a resource editor.
> > Took days to get simple interfaces going. That was 12 years ago, and
> > people are still doing the same sort of thing.
>
> Thats what I think when I look at ASP.NET, PHP and other common web
development tools. :)
>
The only community that is, IMO, far far stronger than Delphi's is the Flash
community. Fortunately the two platforms don't really compete, but
complement.

-- d
---------------------------------------------------
Need to see what's happening?
Check out the Delphi Community Blog Aggregator
http://delphi.flashblogger.com

Cross platform is really only good for servers, the desktop world is still
win32 not Linux, not solaris or anything else. Even the Mac only has a few
perecentage points.

I really don't think a application is going to be succesfull or not
depending on it's cross platform capabilities.
[..]

"Dennis Landi" a écrit

> The only community that is, IMO, far far stronger than Delphi's is the
> Flash
> community. Fortunately the two platforms don't really compete, but
> complement.

We don't want no flasher 'round here, for sure :)

J.

"Mike Vance" <nospam> wrote in message
news:9686

> No wonder the C++ community is so weak-looking.
>
SNIP
>
> Delphi is way ahead.

I understand this thinking completely.

My take is that I still use C++ for most non-gui work. If I have to
have a GUI I use Delphi. Keep the data classes and such as a C++ dll.
This makes it easy for me to port if I have to.

In short I am hoping someday a better GUI framework will appear
and all my C++ crossx classes will be as useful as they are today.
This is no greater risk than hoping Delphi will still be around. They
both get the same flak it seems today.