I need a stable Linux distribution that won't take too much of my time
to maintain and keep secure, but I also tend to want the latest
development tools and libraries, like GCC, Python, Boost, Java,
Eclipse, etc.

In the past, my approach was to use Debian stable, and compile
everything I need to be of the latest version from the non-Debian
sources and install in /usr/local. This seems simpler and less likely
to screw up my system than trying to work with Debian sources from a
different version. Compiling too much stuff from sources is a bit of a
drag though.

Is Ubuntu a better alternative for me? I haven't used it much, and I
don't like their choice of Desktop or colors, but I can relate to
their goal of making things simpler.

I think the tinkerers and advocates (who mostly aren't even
programmers) don't get that computers are here to help /us/, and the
holy grail of computer science is managing the complexity, not
pointless collection of artificial arcana some <expletive> similar to
themselves created.

jhc0033 wrote:

> I need a stable Linux distribution that won't take too much of my time
> to maintain and keep secure, but I also tend to want the latest
> development tools and libraries, like GCC, Python, Boost, Java,
> Eclipse, etc.
>
> In the past, my approach was to use Debian stable, and compile
> everything I need to be of the latest version from the non-Debian

I don't know about Debian, but its descendant Ubuntu has a very nice build farm
that lets you install any of those toys from a command line.

> I think the tinkerers and advocates (who mostly aren't even
> programmers) don't get that computers are here to help /us/, and the
> holy grail of computer science is managing the complexity, not
> pointless collection of artificial arcana some <expletive> similar to
> themselves created.

sudo aptitude install stfu!

On 2008-04-30, Phlip <phlip2005> wrote:
> jhc0033 wrote:
>
>> I need a stable Linux distribution that won't take too much of my time
>> to maintain and keep secure, but I also tend to want the latest
>> development tools and libraries, like GCC, Python, Boost, Java,
>> Eclipse, etc.
>>
>> In the past, my approach was to use Debian stable, and compile
>> everything I need to be of the latest version from the non-Debian
>
> I don't know about Debian, but its descendant Ubuntu has a very nice
> build farm that lets you install any of those toys from a command
> line.

Ubuntu provides a lot of programming stuff. I am a computer programmer
myself and Ubuntu is not missing anything.
[..]

jhc0033 wrote:

> I need a stable Linux distribution that won't take too much of my time
> to maintain and keep secure, but I also tend to want the latest
> development tools and libraries, like GCC, Python, Boost, Java,
> Eclipse, etc.

One thing to note might be that for example Debian stable users would
perhaps also want to build your programs -- without having to install
the newest versions of libraries, tools, etc. manually.
Just a sidenote; imho developers should be a bit on the conservative
side with their choice of requirements.

"jhc0033" <jhc0033> wrote:

> I need a stable Linux distribution that won't take too much of my time
> to maintain and keep secure, but I also tend to want the latest
> development tools and libraries, like GCC, Python, Boost, Java,
> Eclipse, etc.
>
> In the past, my approach was to use Debian stable, and compile
> everything I need to be of the latest version from the non-Debian
> sources and install in /usr/local. This seems simpler and less likely
> to screw up my system than trying to work with Debian sources from a
> different version. Compiling too much stuff from sources is a bit of a
> drag though.

It tends to become a full time job if you need to care about security
and things like that.


> Is Ubuntu a better alternative for me? I haven't used it much, and I
> don't like their choice of Desktop or colors,

You don't event need to be a programmer to change that.


> but I can relate to their goal of making things simpler.

I'm using Ubuntu mostly as a more frequently updated version of
Debian.



Florian

On Apr 30, 2:01 pm, Ignoramus10026 <ignoramus10...@NOSPAM.
10026.invalid> wrote:

> Ubuntu provides a lot of programming stuff. I am a computer programmer
> myself and Ubuntu is not missing anything.

8.04 LTS Ubuntu:

eclipse (3.2.2-5ubuntu2) - latest is 3.3.2
boost (1.34.1-4ubuntu3) - summer version. 1.35 released late March
java (6-06) - strange: the latest Java6 is officially Update5 (?!)

I was just reading some blog that compares Python editors in Ubuntu
http://www.protocolostomy.com/2008/0...ython-editors/
It basically says that most of them barely work or do not work (can't
start, etc.)

I wouldn't be using them anyway, but I expect some reliability and Q/A
from prepackaged distributions. Otherwise, what's the point?

On Apr 30, 4:59 pm, Florian Diesch <die> wrote:

> It tends to become a full time job if you need to care about security
> and things like that.

I don't really see how problems in the development tools can easily
become security problems. My GCC doesn't listen to any ports (I hope).

I guess what I would ideally like is something like Debian stable for
everything, but something like Gentoo/FreeBSD for my choice of
software in /usr/local on top of that.

> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> ** Hi! I'm a signature viru...

A virus has been detected in your signature and disabled.

jhc0033 wrote:

> I guess what I would ideally like is something like Debian stable for
> everything, but something like Gentoo/FreeBSD for my choice of
> software in /usr/local on top of that.

NetBSD's pkgsrc has been ported to other systems (including Linux)... I
don't know if having that _and_ apt on a single system would be worth
the effort... In any case, with such a scheme you'd probably end up with
a lot of duplication.

jhc0033 wrote:
> I need a stable Linux distribution that won't take too much of my time
> to maintain and keep secure, but I also tend to want the latest
> development tools and libraries, like GCC, Python, Boost, Java,
> Eclipse, etc.
>
> In the past, my approach was to use Debian stable, and compile
> everything I need to be of the latest version from the non-Debian
> sources and install in /usr/local. This seems simpler and less likely
> to screw up my system than trying to work with Debian sources from a
> different version. Compiling too much stuff from sources is a bit of a
> drag though.
>
> Is Ubuntu a better alternative for me? I haven't used it much, and I
> don't like their choice of Desktop or colors, but I can relate to
> their goal of making things simpler.

We develop Linux software in Debian, primarily in OCaml, and tried Ubuntu
last year. We didn't like it. Ubuntu broke the nVidia drivers whereas
Debian automated everything. Ubuntu failed to recognise our NICs. Finally,
the Ubuntu packages for everything OCaml related are just old snapshots
from Debian that rarely work.

So I cannot recommend Ubuntu as a developer. Debian is by far the best Linux
distro we've found.

I can't comment on support for esoteric languages like Java. ;-)

On 30 Apr, 19:14, "jhc0...@gmail.com" <jhc0> wrote:
[..]
>
> Is Ubuntu a better alternative for me? I haven't used it much, and I
> don't like their choice of Desktop or colors, but I can relate to
> their goal of making things simpler.
>
> I think the tinkerers and advocates (who mostly aren't even
> programmers) don't get that computers are here to help /us/, and the
> holy grail of computer science is managing the complexity, not
> pointless collection of artificial arcana some <expletive> similar to
> themselves created.


Ubuntu is easy to use and has a good range of dev tools (also
Fedora and Suse).

Jon Harrop wrote:

> jhc0033 wrote:
>
> We develop Linux software in Debian, primarily in OCaml, and tried
> Ubuntu last year. We didn't like it. Ubuntu broke the nVidia drivers
> whereas Debian automated everything. Ubuntu failed to recognise our
> NICs. Finally, the Ubuntu packages for everything OCaml related are
> just old snapshots from Debian that rarely work.
>
> So I cannot recommend Ubuntu as a developer. Debian is by far the best
> Linux distro we've found.
>
> I can't comment on support for esoteric languages like Java. ;-)

Don't you mean outdated? ;-)

I´ve be using Debian to develop in Java, C and (recently) Python for 3
years. After I learned more about the system this became fully
functional to me, I have no problems. I used to do some stress tests
(running full during days) and it always works very stable. I tried
Ubuntu an year ago (just for a month) and it apeard to be so Desktop
user with a lot of things pre-instaled that I didn ´t need and eats a
lot of system resources.

So, I can´t say *don´t* use Ubuntu, but spend a little time to learn
how to configure and use Debian.

["Followup-To:" header set to comp.os.linux.misc.]
gremnebulin <peterdjones>:
> On 30 Apr, 19:14, "jhc0...@gmail.com" <jhc0> wrote:
> > I need a stable Linux distribution that won't take too much of my time
> > to maintain and keep secure, but I also tend to want the latest
> > development tools and libraries, like GCC, Python, Boost, Java,
> > Eclipse, etc.
>
> Ubuntu is easy to use and has a good range of dev tools (also
> Fedora and Suse).

.... and Slackware, and Mandriva, and $DISTROWATCH ...

Linus says a distro gets you an install and a packaging system. What
you do from there is up to you. You don't have to settle for the
default install. You don't have to use the packaging system.

Make it what you want. That's what it's there for. For instance, in
Debian at least, /usr/local is considered off-limits to the packaging
system. Install a bare deb install, and grab stuff from freshmeat
from then on. It works.

It's also a lot of work, but it works. Zenwalk and netpkg is the best
alternative to Debian I've seen, and this is essentially how it works.

"jhc0033" <jhc0033> wrote:

> On Apr 30, 4:59 pm, Florian Diesch <die> wrote:
>
>> It tends to become a full time job if you need to care about security
>> and things like that.
>
> I don't really see how problems in the development tools can easily
> become security problems. My GCC doesn't listen to any ports (I hope).

gcc isn't the only thing a programmer may want to compile. And open
ports aren't the only way for attacks.


> I guess what I would ideally like is something like Debian stable for
> everything, but something like Gentoo/FreeBSD for my choice of
> software in /usr/local on top of that.

Ideally there is some distribution based on the environment you
are working with so you get bugfixes ported to the versions you need.


>> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
>> ** Hi! I'm a signature viru...
>
> A virus has been detected in your signature and disabled.

It infects your brain as soon as you read it. There is no known
antidote. Sorry for that. You will be my slave soon.


Florian

s. keeling wrote:
> Linus says a distro gets you an install and a packaging system. What
> you do from there is up to you. You don't have to settle for the
> default install. You don't have to use the packaging system.

Nope, but I want to be able to.

Furthermore, if my requirements are fairly basic, I want to be able to
meet all of those requirements with the default install and the default
packaging system.

> Make it what you want. That's what it's there for.

IMHO, at least for my purposes, that's not what it's there for. It's
there to be stable, unobtrusive, and reliable, so that I can make *other*
things, at a higher level, what I want them to be, without messing with
the basics.

- Logan